Totally agree with all of this. Lately I've seen a lot of people also compare children to dogs which is really disturbing. Like, "why is some bratty kid allowed at a restaurant but not my precious doggo?" I made a comment once that I didn't like non-service dogs next to me while I'm eating and people acted like I was Cruella DeVille. But they can make casual "I hate people's spawn in restaurants" comments and people laugh it off. I'm sorry but children are human beings, they have more of a right to be there than an animal.
It’s also such a weird thing to hear people say that their pets are their babies because it just minimizes the pain that mothers go through to have a baby. In one hand, I understand why they say this but even if I love my pets I wouldn’t be calling them my babies or putting a sticker that calls me a “dog mom” on the back of my car.
My attitude towards it is: if you don't like dogs, don't go to dog friendly places. If you don't like children, don't go to children friendly places. It's not difficult.
But that implies children should only be in children friendly places, which is exactly the opposite of what this piece is pointing out -- that children actually belong almost everywhere.
Dogs aren’t allowed in most places, but children are.
My point was that if someone doesn’t want to dine near dogs, the solution is simple: go somewhere that doesn’t allow them and there are plenty of those. By contrast, in the UK there are very few places where children aren’t allowed.
The article is really about people being annoyed at children for simply existing in spaces meant for them, like Disney. That’s why I drew the comparison: if you don’t want to eat near dogs, choose a dog-free venue. The same logic could apply to child-free spaces. But because those are so rare, it’s unreasonable to be upset when children are present in the vast majority of public places.
Yes, that's the key point. It's unreasonable to be upset when kids are in public places.
Now, the flip side is that parents have a responsibility to teach their kids good manners and not allow them to run wild. Kids will still act out now and then because they're kids, but we've lost some of the behavior norms that were expected in earlier generations, and made life easier for most people.
IMO these 'parunts' take pleasure in the strife, noise, and chaos their kids create. they never pay for the damages their kids do, and screech like howler monkeys when asked to control their kids. It's a pity, because it is possible to teach kids to behave, and their kids tend to do far better in life. they don't think that they are the center of the universe, and have learned compassion and empathy.
Dogs need to be trained and socialized, too. love dogs but their owners are always the problem. your dog, like your child, reflect who you are. A badly behaved, aggressive, violent child or dog is a huge red flag for the adult human. What kind of person tolerates that sort of behavior?
I don’t want your sniffling snot covered human germ vector running amok and getting anywhere near me. Many of us do not appreciate being exposed to contagions. There are very few contagious diseases and parasites that infet humans and dogs, but everything your child carries can be.
I don't have kids. That's not by choice, but since I don't wear a t-shirt proclaiming that, people often assume I'm going to be receptive to their rants about children.
Once I went to the Lincoln Park Zoo with my husband and another childless couple. One of the pair started complaining about all of the children standing in the way of displays. I didn't know her well, so I said mildly, "Well, it is a children's zoo"
My husband and I went to Disney last year, by ourselves. It was a lovely time. Afterward so many people asked us if it was horrible to be around all those screaming kids.
Um. No. Actually, it turns out that Disney really is the happiest place on earth. The only person I saw melt down in an entire *week* in the Disney bubble was a mom whose children were not retrieving ponchos quickly enough in a downpour.
But the children? They were charming. It's *Disney* for goodness sake. There are suppose to be children there.
And there were so many moments where I thought, "Oh I wish I could experience with my bestie and her kids" or "Oh my nieces would love this, I wish I could be here when they experience it"
An adults only lounge is fine. I do like doing things that don't involve kids. The afore mentioned bestie and I intentionally plan things without her kids from time to time, because that's a different type of enjoyable.
But it's ridiculous for people to act like kids are ruining their experience of the world, simply by being there.
My wife and I are in the same boat of not being able to have kids. We went to Disney with her family in June and it was amazing seeing it through my niece and nephew’s eyes. They were in awe of everything.
The Disney Adults were far more annoying than the kids. Kids just want to stare at everything. The Disney Adults have to get the perfect photo, or the perfect spot. It was exhausting watching them
I have to say, one of the unexpected pleasures of parenthood has been the reaction of other adults (mostly parents themselves, I assume) to my children's public temper tantrums. There's the guy who joked, "enjoy every moment!" when my 3yo daughter was thrashing around during a rare attempt at a family photo, to the woman who said to me while my daughter flatlined on the floor at Target, "It's so hard. You're doing great." The "you're doing great mamas" could be read as condescending, but I prefer to think of them as conveying solidarity. And soooo many fellow airplane passengers have helped us carry the absurd amount of stuff it takes to travel with two toddlers.
No, I think you have it right! At least, I hope I don’t come across as condescending if it’s not my kid having the tantrum for once or if I am out solo. There definitely is that insider community of adults who clearly love kids but have no illusions about the range of possible behaviors that can happen. Catching another parent’s eye and sighing together makes me feel so much less alone!
A woman saw me at Costco wearing my very young infant and holding my older child’s hand through the parking lot and told me “you deserve an award for this.” That same trip, another woman helped me load my trunk and took my cart for me because she has six kids and remembered how hard those years with young children were. I cant wait to be the more seasoned mother encouraging the ones with young children!
As I approach 70 years on this planet and think about downsizing, people tell me I should move to an over-55 community. Most of those communities are governed by HOAs, which I could never tolerate, but most of all I would sorely miss my neighbor kids. I enjoy hearing the shrieks of delight as they play, don’t mind tripping over the toys left in my yard at all, but most of all I think during my conversations with the young folk I probably learn more from them than they do from me. Sorry, I just don’t get people who don’t like kids, just as much as I don’t get people who don’t like foreigners, people of color or old folks.
Thanks for this article! So many places that used to be if not “for kids” At least were encouraging of them. I remember fondly all the different indoor play places at various fast food restaurants in my hometown. Now they all have a weird “upscale” cafe vibe and no play place so I don’t take my children. What I would give for a McDonalds play place in the middle of winter rather than having to pay $25 per child for an indoor playground with no food.
Great piece, with so many excellent lines. "I didn’t, and still don’t, believe we should be hidden away because he was dying and they were just recently alive." Heartbreaking and beautifully put.
Perhaps, if children were more welcome, it would bring about generally better behaved children in public. If they are used to being out among other people and their parents discipline them, then they’d probably be quite good in public.
Perhaps, if parents raied their children to behave, more places would not be banning children. You teach them to behave at home, with friends and relatives, in schools then you introduce them into more advanced social interactions. Would you like someone who just got out of premed to give you a cardiac bypasss?
While I don't think we need to wait until children are in school to bring them into public areas, I agree with you on principle. Parents are so afraid to traumatize their children these days that they don't discipline them, which results in spoiled brats acting out. A toddler can learn to behave in public.
Children were always welcome in places in the past. That hasn't stopped parents from abdicating their responsibilities of raising a good child instead of a brat. If children were still well behaved nowdays, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Love this! It’s interesting to me that (at least in my area), breweries are becoming a third space for families. I wish more places felt more welcoming to kids. I agree it can be so isolating if your options are your house or the park.
Interestingly, I think I just saw something in the NYT about a backlash to this! I tried to find the article but essentially more breweries are looking to ban kids :(
That’s so lame and also they’re going to lose a ton of business that way! The ones by me that allow kids are packed, and then tend to be empty once the families leave in the early evening.
Then go get your drink on with your other mombie pals in the playgrounds that are now offlimits to those without children. Bring your own [mommyjuice']
I think part of the problem is that people almost categorize raising children now into “hobbies” where they treat it like it’s the equivalent of training for a marathon or walking their dog - things are meaningful but also very optional and self-selecting. I don’t think people realize how dark and scary and dystopian the world would be if we didn’t have future generations of humans entering the world.
The social contract is just fucked. Everyone thinks they’re the main character about whom all others must revolve. There is very little grace, compromise, or understanding shown to others.
The people who can't handle other people's children in public spaces seem to overlap with the type of people who say they didn't "ask to be born" to justify their idiosyncratic views about what their parents/society owes them.
My stepsister once said “I just don’t like kids” as though it was a legitimate excuse for being actively unkind to my then two year old. My step sister was hungover and my daughter was…existing? Playing? I said “I’m not asking you to babysit. But you will treat her with the same respect you’d extend to any other human being.” On their birthdays, she texts “happy birthday James/Lucy” just like that, and only because my step mom makes her. When she’s in town she ignores them unless it’s absolutely necessary to interact. Blows. My. Mind.
Well said! We were all kids at one time unless you were born an adult size person (pity that mom!!). Get over yourself if you lack the joy/humanity of seeing a family together trying to enjoy a meal, flight, vacation, any stolen moment!
I'm childless not by choice. My husband and I enjoyed going to the adult only night at a science museum because we've thought about going to the science museum ourselves but wasn't sure if it was weird to go without bringing kids of our own.
Fwiw, I went to the science museum, zoo, etc. before we had kids and after. I think it’s great when adults enjoy these spaces! You don’t need to bring a child. I only ever take issue when said adults resent sharing space with children.
We don’t mind SHARING spaces, but keep your children from screeching and destroying things. Try a little bit of empathy. If YOU don’t teach them manners, don’t get mad when adults find you and your offspring to be noxious and annoying.
I met so many people in college who were emphatically anti-children in public spaces, and they thought it was modern and edgy to confidently declare "I HATE kids" with a grin and a giggle, them proceed to go on about their favorite media whose target demographic is children. The most egregious part of their casual hatred for a whole group of people is that most of them were themselves in vulnerable people groups whose basic rights have historically been contested. It's really jarring to hear an otherwise pretty normal person who is vocal about liberal values and human rights to be so vehemently against an innocent people group.
Totally agree with all of this. Lately I've seen a lot of people also compare children to dogs which is really disturbing. Like, "why is some bratty kid allowed at a restaurant but not my precious doggo?" I made a comment once that I didn't like non-service dogs next to me while I'm eating and people acted like I was Cruella DeVille. But they can make casual "I hate people's spawn in restaurants" comments and people laugh it off. I'm sorry but children are human beings, they have more of a right to be there than an animal.
It’s also such a weird thing to hear people say that their pets are their babies because it just minimizes the pain that mothers go through to have a baby. In one hand, I understand why they say this but even if I love my pets I wouldn’t be calling them my babies or putting a sticker that calls me a “dog mom” on the back of my car.
My attitude towards it is: if you don't like dogs, don't go to dog friendly places. If you don't like children, don't go to children friendly places. It's not difficult.
But that implies children should only be in children friendly places, which is exactly the opposite of what this piece is pointing out -- that children actually belong almost everywhere.
Dogs aren’t allowed in most places, but children are.
My point was that if someone doesn’t want to dine near dogs, the solution is simple: go somewhere that doesn’t allow them and there are plenty of those. By contrast, in the UK there are very few places where children aren’t allowed.
The article is really about people being annoyed at children for simply existing in spaces meant for them, like Disney. That’s why I drew the comparison: if you don’t want to eat near dogs, choose a dog-free venue. The same logic could apply to child-free spaces. But because those are so rare, it’s unreasonable to be upset when children are present in the vast majority of public places.
Yes, that's the key point. It's unreasonable to be upset when kids are in public places.
Now, the flip side is that parents have a responsibility to teach their kids good manners and not allow them to run wild. Kids will still act out now and then because they're kids, but we've lost some of the behavior norms that were expected in earlier generations, and made life easier for most people.
IMO these 'parunts' take pleasure in the strife, noise, and chaos their kids create. they never pay for the damages their kids do, and screech like howler monkeys when asked to control their kids. It's a pity, because it is possible to teach kids to behave, and their kids tend to do far better in life. they don't think that they are the center of the universe, and have learned compassion and empathy.
Dogs need to be trained and socialized, too. love dogs but their owners are always the problem. your dog, like your child, reflect who you are. A badly behaved, aggressive, violent child or dog is a huge red flag for the adult human. What kind of person tolerates that sort of behavior?
I don’t want your sniffling snot covered human germ vector running amok and getting anywhere near me. Many of us do not appreciate being exposed to contagions. There are very few contagious diseases and parasites that infet humans and dogs, but everything your child carries can be.
Oh look, one of the anti-humanity Scrooges made an appearance for illustrative purposes!
Great thoughts.
I don't have kids. That's not by choice, but since I don't wear a t-shirt proclaiming that, people often assume I'm going to be receptive to their rants about children.
Once I went to the Lincoln Park Zoo with my husband and another childless couple. One of the pair started complaining about all of the children standing in the way of displays. I didn't know her well, so I said mildly, "Well, it is a children's zoo"
My husband and I went to Disney last year, by ourselves. It was a lovely time. Afterward so many people asked us if it was horrible to be around all those screaming kids.
Um. No. Actually, it turns out that Disney really is the happiest place on earth. The only person I saw melt down in an entire *week* in the Disney bubble was a mom whose children were not retrieving ponchos quickly enough in a downpour.
But the children? They were charming. It's *Disney* for goodness sake. There are suppose to be children there.
And there were so many moments where I thought, "Oh I wish I could experience with my bestie and her kids" or "Oh my nieces would love this, I wish I could be here when they experience it"
An adults only lounge is fine. I do like doing things that don't involve kids. The afore mentioned bestie and I intentionally plan things without her kids from time to time, because that's a different type of enjoyable.
But it's ridiculous for people to act like kids are ruining their experience of the world, simply by being there.
My wife and I are in the same boat of not being able to have kids. We went to Disney with her family in June and it was amazing seeing it through my niece and nephew’s eyes. They were in awe of everything.
The Disney Adults were far more annoying than the kids. Kids just want to stare at everything. The Disney Adults have to get the perfect photo, or the perfect spot. It was exhausting watching them
Disney adults are definitely a shining example of what the author said about people who hate kids because they want to be society's baby.
I have to say, one of the unexpected pleasures of parenthood has been the reaction of other adults (mostly parents themselves, I assume) to my children's public temper tantrums. There's the guy who joked, "enjoy every moment!" when my 3yo daughter was thrashing around during a rare attempt at a family photo, to the woman who said to me while my daughter flatlined on the floor at Target, "It's so hard. You're doing great." The "you're doing great mamas" could be read as condescending, but I prefer to think of them as conveying solidarity. And soooo many fellow airplane passengers have helped us carry the absurd amount of stuff it takes to travel with two toddlers.
Ignore the haters. Most people get it.
No, I think you have it right! At least, I hope I don’t come across as condescending if it’s not my kid having the tantrum for once or if I am out solo. There definitely is that insider community of adults who clearly love kids but have no illusions about the range of possible behaviors that can happen. Catching another parent’s eye and sighing together makes me feel so much less alone!
A woman saw me at Costco wearing my very young infant and holding my older child’s hand through the parking lot and told me “you deserve an award for this.” That same trip, another woman helped me load my trunk and took my cart for me because she has six kids and remembered how hard those years with young children were. I cant wait to be the more seasoned mother encouraging the ones with young children!
The irony of a Disney adult complaining about “spoiled children”.
As I approach 70 years on this planet and think about downsizing, people tell me I should move to an over-55 community. Most of those communities are governed by HOAs, which I could never tolerate, but most of all I would sorely miss my neighbor kids. I enjoy hearing the shrieks of delight as they play, don’t mind tripping over the toys left in my yard at all, but most of all I think during my conversations with the young folk I probably learn more from them than they do from me. Sorry, I just don’t get people who don’t like kids, just as much as I don’t get people who don’t like foreigners, people of color or old folks.
Thanks for this article! So many places that used to be if not “for kids” At least were encouraging of them. I remember fondly all the different indoor play places at various fast food restaurants in my hometown. Now they all have a weird “upscale” cafe vibe and no play place so I don’t take my children. What I would give for a McDonalds play place in the middle of winter rather than having to pay $25 per child for an indoor playground with no food.
Great piece, with so many excellent lines. "I didn’t, and still don’t, believe we should be hidden away because he was dying and they were just recently alive." Heartbreaking and beautifully put.
Perhaps, if children were more welcome, it would bring about generally better behaved children in public. If they are used to being out among other people and their parents discipline them, then they’d probably be quite good in public.
Perhaps, if parents raied their children to behave, more places would not be banning children. You teach them to behave at home, with friends and relatives, in schools then you introduce them into more advanced social interactions. Would you like someone who just got out of premed to give you a cardiac bypasss?
While I don't think we need to wait until children are in school to bring them into public areas, I agree with you on principle. Parents are so afraid to traumatize their children these days that they don't discipline them, which results in spoiled brats acting out. A toddler can learn to behave in public.
Children were always welcome in places in the past. That hasn't stopped parents from abdicating their responsibilities of raising a good child instead of a brat. If children were still well behaved nowdays, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Love this! It’s interesting to me that (at least in my area), breweries are becoming a third space for families. I wish more places felt more welcoming to kids. I agree it can be so isolating if your options are your house or the park.
Interestingly, I think I just saw something in the NYT about a backlash to this! I tried to find the article but essentially more breweries are looking to ban kids :(
That’s so lame and also they’re going to lose a ton of business that way! The ones by me that allow kids are packed, and then tend to be empty once the families leave in the early evening.
Because the adults are gone to places that don’t operate as childcare for drunken parunts.
Then go get your drink on with your other mombie pals in the playgrounds that are now offlimits to those without children. Bring your own [mommyjuice']
Yeah obviously every parent is getting wasted any time there’s alcohol around 🙄 What an obtuse comment you felt the need to say twice
If they aren’t drinking, why are they in bars?
My question is if they're drinking in bars with their kids, are they driving drunk going home with their kids in the car?
Exactly.
btw one of the more common 'distractions' that cause accidents are children in the back seat.
I think part of the problem is that people almost categorize raising children now into “hobbies” where they treat it like it’s the equivalent of training for a marathon or walking their dog - things are meaningful but also very optional and self-selecting. I don’t think people realize how dark and scary and dystopian the world would be if we didn’t have future generations of humans entering the world.
The social contract is just fucked. Everyone thinks they’re the main character about whom all others must revolve. There is very little grace, compromise, or understanding shown to others.
The people who can't handle other people's children in public spaces seem to overlap with the type of people who say they didn't "ask to be born" to justify their idiosyncratic views about what their parents/society owes them.
My stepsister once said “I just don’t like kids” as though it was a legitimate excuse for being actively unkind to my then two year old. My step sister was hungover and my daughter was…existing? Playing? I said “I’m not asking you to babysit. But you will treat her with the same respect you’d extend to any other human being.” On their birthdays, she texts “happy birthday James/Lucy” just like that, and only because my step mom makes her. When she’s in town she ignores them unless it’s absolutely necessary to interact. Blows. My. Mind.
Well said! We were all kids at one time unless you were born an adult size person (pity that mom!!). Get over yourself if you lack the joy/humanity of seeing a family together trying to enjoy a meal, flight, vacation, any stolen moment!
I'm childless not by choice. My husband and I enjoyed going to the adult only night at a science museum because we've thought about going to the science museum ourselves but wasn't sure if it was weird to go without bringing kids of our own.
Fwiw, I went to the science museum, zoo, etc. before we had kids and after. I think it’s great when adults enjoy these spaces! You don’t need to bring a child. I only ever take issue when said adults resent sharing space with children.
We don’t mind SHARING spaces, but keep your children from screeching and destroying things. Try a little bit of empathy. If YOU don’t teach them manners, don’t get mad when adults find you and your offspring to be noxious and annoying.
I used to work at a science museum—there’s nothing wrong with going as an adult with no kids, at night or during the day! Have fun!
I met so many people in college who were emphatically anti-children in public spaces, and they thought it was modern and edgy to confidently declare "I HATE kids" with a grin and a giggle, them proceed to go on about their favorite media whose target demographic is children. The most egregious part of their casual hatred for a whole group of people is that most of them were themselves in vulnerable people groups whose basic rights have historically been contested. It's really jarring to hear an otherwise pretty normal person who is vocal about liberal values and human rights to be so vehemently against an innocent people group.